WTF? Things Not To Be Done to Characters...

[seawasp]

Over at Seanan McGuire's LJ, she's posted a rant about something that leaves me gobsmacked. Apparently a "fan" asked her -- in so many words -- when one of her protagonists was "finally going to be raped".

"Finally going to be".

As though... it's inevitable! It must happen!

The person CONFIRMED this point of view when Seanan said that she NEVER intended to have any of these protagonists raped and the person said, and I quote: "I thought you had respect for your work. That's just unrealistic."

My brain CANNOT GET AROUND THIS. I just can't UNDERSTAND how that's a possible viewpoint. I mean, you're talking about protagonists in supernatural adventures -- most of them with superhuman powers, at the least super-competent and QUITE able to defend themselves. Yet, somehow, to this person (and one must presume, others) it seems only REALISTIC that eventually they MUST "finally" get raped.

This is apparently not as rare a belief as I would have thought it should be (i.e., only in the sick minds of a few people mostly confined to mental institutions), given that James Nicoll reports that roughly ONE THIRD of all the books that pass through his hands include AT LEAST ONE rape sequence.

WTF?

Okay, for the record. I have never yet written a rape scene; none of my forthcoming books have any such scenes in them. Looking over all the books I reasonably foresee myself writing, I know of one (1) point at which there will be an ATTEMPTED rape. It will not succeed, and it will not be some means of "developing" the character in question or of breaking her or anything of the sort.

EDIT TO ADD: Within the books I *have* written, there is one character (Madeline Fathom) whose backstory includes clear abuse which, had she not been rescued in time, would have culminated in rape; Kyri Vantage in Phoenix Rising is also placed in a position where it is clear that this WOULD happen if certain events did not occur, but they do and the person in question pays the price for even attempting it.

I do NOT believe that rape is some kind of inevitable event. I don't think it's "realistic", especially in the context of competent and powerful protagonists (yeah, you just go ahead and TRY raping Madeline Fathom, Ariane Austin, or, gods help you, Kyri Vantage [okay, someone does, and the gods don't help him]). I don't think it's edgy or literary or inventive. All of that's been DONE. When the damn *comic books* have gotten to the point that they do this, it's not edgy, just disgustingly sad.

My characters are heroes. I put them through the wringer so they can kick the wringer to pieces and use the pieces to build a superweapon to bring down the entire wringer factory. But rape isn't a necessary gear in my wringer, and I see nothing that it brings to the table as an event that makes it necessary to be used. I don't need it; I've got a billion other ways to abuse my characters!

Comments

[groblek.livejournal.com]

Amen. I was nearly at a loss for words after reading her post, the worldview of her questioner is just that alien to me. And it's not one I want to ever be able to understand.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

Yiiii... and now I'm feeling fairly sick to my stomach about the wringer I've just put Alinadar through. She doesn't get raped, but she does get hurt and humiliated very badly. I'll admit it's mostly to force Salli to switch gears from somewhat self-absorbed noblevixen to rescuer, but I'm not going to be looking forward to the comments from my beta readers.

Gah!

[shanejayell.livejournal.com]

What the FUCK....

*shakes head*

[ninjarat.livejournal.com]

It's a hate thing. No, really. There are some broad expectations.

One is that the victim will hate all men, because only men are capable of rape and therefore all men are evil. Stories that use this version of the trope -- and it is a trope -- tend to place the victim between a strong, sympathetic woman and a strong, sympathetic-seeming man just to screw with the victim's emotions even more.

Another is the full-bore Roaring Rampage of Revenge where the victim takes out her pain and anguish and hatred on the perpetrators of her rape. This provides the sympathetic reader (or author) the vicarious thrill of beating the shit out of evil men (because all men are evil rapists) without getting her hands messy.

And then there are the sick fucks who get off seeing/reading about/writing about rapes in progress. Which is still a hate thing, but a hate for the victims rather than a hate for the perpetrators.

By the way, the best fictional portrayal of rape that I've seen or read is also the least realistic. The portrayal is Kane from the movie "Alien".

[j-v-lynch.livejournal.com]

"My characters are heroes. I put them through the wringer so they can kick the wringer to pieces and use the pieces to build a superweapon to bring down the entire wringer factory."

I love this line.

[seawasp]

I just tell it like it is!

[nebroadwe.livejournal.com]

Sometimes there's not enough WTF in the world.

[nebroadwe.livejournal.com]

Preach it, brother!

Books To Look Up

[tamahori]

Well, I guess I'll have to look into getting some of Seanan McGuire's books ... from my point of view, this counts as a very positive view of her writing.

As for the person that asked the question, and the attitudes behind it ... I honestly don't have the words to describe how low my opinion of them is.

[goodluckfox.livejournal.com]

There are some pretty messed up in the head toxic fans out there, Ryk. Sounds like she ran into one of them.

[melchar.livejournal.com]

Thank you and again, thank you. 99% of the time, rape is used as the 'worstest thing evar' by people who lack imagination. I'm glad you have ever-so-many more ideas of how to make characters -really- suffer without using rape. You and Seanan rock!

[fayanora.livejournal.com]

Yeah... I have a character, Lyria Spellspinner, who is a 300+ year old sorceress who looks no older than 30. She's powerful, pulls no punches, and worst of all gets very creative when angered. If anyone tried to rape her, they would soon be begging for death... or would, if they could still speak.

Let me put it this way: compared to what Lyria could do, Prometheus got off easy.

[dsrtao]

She writes under that name and also as Mira Grant. The Grant trilogy is about zombies and the people who poke them with sticks. The McGuire books are (1) the story of October Daye, half-fairy, and (2) a new world in which all the monsters are real but hiding in NYC.

They're all competently written, and some much more so than that.

[aardy.livejournal.com]

The only answer I can come up with that might possibly explain the "unrealistic" comment, and it's a stretch at best, is based on the statistic that frequently gets mentioned in the news that (and I don't remember the specific numbers) on average something like 1/4 of all women will be raped at some point in their lives, therefore [and here's the logic flaw] it's unrealistic for all of one's female protagonist to never have been/will be raped.

It's lousy logic,like I said--how many series have a protagonist or a member of their immediate family get cancer? why do you think it's called "escapist" literature?--but I can see how someone might follow that particular line of logic to arrive at that conclusion, especially with the trope being used so frequently with female protagonists that it's unfortunately unusual to come across an author who writes female protagonists and doesn't use the trope.

[seawasp]

I suppose, but as you say it's lousy logic; especially in heroic fiction, the heroines are *vastly* more competent than almost everyone around them, and someone trying anything on them is likely to end up hurt or dead. Or worse.

[johnkzin.livejournal.com]

In some people's lives, the statistic isn't 1/4.

Any woman I've gotten close enough to, to find out that kind of thing, the answer is always "yes, I was raped". No matter where they're from, no matter what social background, race, education background, etc. Always yes. And they haven't all been girlfriends, or even women I was in some way attracted to (so it's not that kind of bias).

Though, speaking of biases, I notice quite a few of the icons in this thread, especially more negative responses, are from men. I wonder what percentage of women who read this thread actually disagree with the premise.

I'm capable of realizing that there's mitigating factors there ("gotten close enough to" is one bias in the statistic, and it's an anecdote, not a rigorous survey), but my point is: not everyone recognizes that kind of bias. I don't think it necessarily means that the "fan" was in any way flawed (someone up there said "toxic fans"), just that they might have a rather biased view of the world, based upon what percentage of that 1/4 is more or less common in their own life.

For me, I wouldn't say it's unrealistic for any given female character to have "never been raped" ... nor would I say it's merely a trope. It's a reality. To universally avoid it is just as unrealistic as universally embracing it. If it makes sense to the story itself, go there. If doesn't, don't. Every other statement about it is just a BS rationalization.

[jessica burde (from livejournal.com)]

Mixed feelings on this. I agree that the idea of someone managing to rape Ariane (or any of your other heros) is ludicrous. And it is true that 'stranger rape' - which is what 90% of rape scenes in books ARE - is actually insanely uncommon.

But, yes, rape and/or sexual assault are extremely common. And while I agree that expecting a protagonist to be raped is a bit on the fucked up side, expecting rape and assault to exist in a fiction world isn't, IMO.

As a poly person, it was a big deal to me when Simon Sandrisson acknowledged that non-monogamy is an option. He didn't even consider it - he just said 'it exists, but it's not for me.' Just that acknowledgement that 'this thing exists' is a big deal because it brings something that has been taboo into the open, and makes it okay to talk about.

In the same way, date rape, incest rape, men getting raped, are all real problems that are ignored and not talked about. When writers acknowledge these things exist - that's a big deal. When writers acknowledge that these things exist and are wrong, that's a bigger deal. Why? Because whether it is your intent or not, your writing and your fiction worlds shape peoples ideas.

Right now the only date rape that gets written about is in romance novels that make it seem like it's normal and okay - girl says 'no', guy says 'you don't really mean that, you're just (fill in blank)' girl says 'no', guy pushes until girl is overwhelmed by sensation and can't say 'no' anymore, afterward admits guy was right to ignore her and force her to have sex with him. I would god damn love to see someone turn this sick trope on its head. I loved Patty Brigg's introducing Ben's history in Iron Kissed, because it was a male character who had been abused and survived. That wasn't a main character, wasn't a great big rape scene. It was a bit of character background (that, yes, was fairly important to that plot scene).

Yeah, you can say you aren't going for realism, this is escapist. You can say that it isn't 'edgy' and it's become a trope, but the same way Mercedes Lackey writing a book about a gay protagonist shaped the views of a generation of fantasy readers, what you write, or don't write about rape shapes the expectations of your readers. So if you write as if rape doesn't exist, as if the only rape is stranger rape, as if a strong woman can't be raped, as if rape is something that only happens to women. If you ignore rape entirely and say 'this is fantasy'... that will shape your reader's views. And sorry, but for any writer as popular as you are, that matters.

So, should it be expected that a protagonist will be raped? No, no and fuck no. Should rape be ignored and never mentioned because it's 'not edgy' or 'cancer happens and we don't feel a need to mention cancer in every book' or any of the other reasons I've seen in this discussion? Sorry, no. If you don't include a single character who has ever been raped, coerced, or abused, that is unrealistic and contributes to the silencing of people who have been and are ignored because there experience wasn't 'real rape', or 'those things don't happen'. And I'm sorry, but I don't care if a writer doesn't intend their writing to be addressing social issues or just wants to escapist. On this issue, if you aren't part of the solution, you really are part of the problem.

[seawasp]

I depict what I feel is necessary for the story. If it's ever necessary for such events to be important in the story, I'll depict them, just as if there's ever a necessary reason for the reader to witness two characters having sex, I'll have a sex scene. But if it isn't necessary to the story, I won't do things I find particularly squicky or uncomfortable. I just wrote one story in which I had to have a depiction of a child being abused by her father (not sexually, just violently) because it shows how she makes certain choices and why. But I won't show children being abused by ANYONE if I don't have a damn good plot reason for it, because I HAVE children and it *BOTHERS* me to write it. I have to get into the head of either the victim or the villain when writing the scene, and either one makes my blood boil. That's only worth it, as a writer, if I *have* to do it in order to write the story.

Thinking back, I did have some of that in Madeline Fathom's backstory in Boundary; while Maddie didn't *quite* get raped, her own parents were grooming her for a "marriage" to the cult leader which is rape in my book, and her upbringing in the cult was certainly abuse. But that upbringing and the way she was saved from it shaped her entire character. Kyri Vantage is also under the threat of this at one point in Phoenix Rising. I've just edited the original post to add these points, as it's relevant to the post.

If that's insufficient for you, then I'm part of the problem. C'est la vie.

[jessica burde (from livejournal.com)]

Actually, that's pretty damn sufficient, and I'm sorry if I came across as lecturing or ranting in my earlier post. The issue as a whole is one that, as you say 'makes my blood boil', and several recent events in politics and other areas have me on something of a hair trigger. Some of the stuff here set me off because it seemed to be implying that rape just didn't belong in fantasy, either because it was over done or ruined the 'escapist' feel.

I don't believe in adding nasty shit for the sake of adding nasty shit, but if it is relevant to the background of a character it should be there. That was the main point I wanted to make, and again, I'm sorry if that got lost in my over reaction.

[seawasp]

No problem. My feeling is that it shouldn't be left out, if that is what is necessary to really tell the story -- either to show what it is that makes a character the way they are, or to show what sort of a monster you're dealing with -- but it shouldn't be used... cheaply, I guess would be the word. Some writers seem to think rape is a... convenient characterization tool, one that you just bust right out immediately whenever you've got a hard-edged female protagonist (either it explains her hard edges, or the hard edges are demonstrated by her "surviving" the rape, etc., etc.), and for that I have nothing but contempt. From your messages I would gather we agree on this.

[jessica burde (from livejournal.com)]

Pretty much.

[denelian.livejournal.com]

gah. just - GAH


as i just said to Seanan on her blog - part of the REASON i like Urban Fantasy is the fantasy ideal of being THAT POWERFUL THAT I CAN'T HAPPEN BECAUSE SO POWER AS TO BE ABLE TO STOP IT!!!


having been raped - it's not a freaking BACKSTORY to give for "drama" and books that handle it badly i get rid of. there are books that handle it well, and sometimes it's even a good thing [Patricia Briggs, seriously - as useful as a YEAR of therapy and EMDR] but...

gah!