Smartest Villains?

[seawasp]

Kathy and I were sitting here and talking about various villains, and we've been trying to think of the smartest villains we've seen (preferably in a movie/TV show, but could be a literary villain).

I'm not talking about people who walk a fine line, or who are villains-by-default, though; I'm talking about real, honest-to-god, crush your planet, enslave your women, trigger Armageddon and laugh about it, villains.

So far some of the top contenders are:

Dante (or, in the manga, Father): From Fullmetal Alchemist. These are people who manipulate ENTIRE CIVILIZATIONS just to get the results they want. Dante used everything including the brothers' own resurrection of their mother to achieve her goals. Father manipulated everything since, basically, Atlantis.

Orochimaru, Naruto: Super-warrior shinobi. Master of virtually every technique ever invented. Creator of a particularly disturbing form of immortality. Nobel-prize level research scientist in alchemical and mystical warrior areas. Manipulator of people. Complete and total sociopath. This guy gives me the creeps, and he manages to be somehow cool while doing it. Hannibal Lecter on steroids and with superpowers.

Emperor Palpatine, Star Wars. "All that has transpired here has done so according to my design." For a generation or more THAT WAS LITERAL TRUTH. He screwed up only at the very end. He was also the only really worthwhile thing to watch in the prequels.

Alfred Bester, Babylon 5: Always with a plan that kept you *just* that far from killing him. Always somehow walking away to live another day. A cheerful smile and a total lack of conscience for almost everything.


Your thoughts?

Comments

[shanejayell.livejournal.com]

Oooh, Bester. LOVED him in B5, such a utter bastard. Wish they had actually shown him get what's coming to him....

[llennhoff.livejournal.com]

You do know that there were novels of the final fate of Bester, right?

[shanejayell.livejournal.com]

Oh, I've read 'em. I did say "wish it was shown" after all.

[ckd]

Getting burned by an alien probe, then mind-controlled by a Ceti Eel in his ear, and also falling off a nuclear wessel isn't enough punishment? :-)

[seawasp]

That happened BEFORE he became evil, though, so it doesn't really count as punishment, does it?

[shana.livejournal.com]

Fu Manchu.

[seawasp]

Ahhh, yes indeed, one of the very classic examples from which the Evil Overlord is drawn.

[shana.livejournal.com]

He's an Evil Mastermind AND a Mad Scientist!

[seawasp]

Is he a dessert topping too?

[hallerlake.livejournal.com]

You almost got a keyboard kill with that one

[shana.livejournal.com]

Only if you're immune to poison.

Ba'al from Stargate SG1

[tamahori]

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa%27uld_characters_in_Stargate#Ba.27al

I'm not sure if he quite has the classic megalomania aspects, but then neither did Alfred Bester.

Ba'al did spend a lot of time keeping the good guys running around in circles, and a few times even got them to do his dirty work for him. He was also flexible enough to work with them to take out a bigger problem, and then vanish off before they could do anything to him in turn.

His 'super power' was he seems to have been the only Goa'uld System Lord in the setting that didn't buy into his own PR. He's the kind of person who you'd expect to have read the If I Was An Evil Overlord list.

I liked his style.

-- Brett

Re: Ba'al from Stargate SG1

[randallsquared.livejournal.com]

Yeah, his biggest problem was that he expected other people to do what was obviously in their own best interest, and if someone didn't see their own best interest as clearly as he did, they surprised him. This happened more than once, with the best example being one I don't want to talk about because it's a massive spoiler.

[llennhoff.livejournal.com]

The Mayor, from Season 3 of Buffy. He was in charge of Sunnydale for nearly a century. Who knows how many rivals to his power he had to deal with over that time.

[seawasp]

And the best exit-line EVAR!

[ross-teneyck.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if Marc "Blackie" DuQuesne is one of the smartest villains, per se. But he's definitely one of the classiest. In the end, he walks away to rule some far-off galaxy after he and his nemesis decide that, whaddya know, the universe actually is big enough for the two of them. Barely.

[seawasp]

Oh, DuQuesne was undoubtedly one of the smartest. Intellectually Seaton's equal, capable of running a scam on people with vastly greater knowledge and power than his own, and more importantly capable of recognizing when he was outmatched and acting on THAT knowledge rather than his own ego.

[kengr]

DuQuesne will always have a special place for many fans.

[midnightlurker.livejournal.com]

Marc Remillard from the Pliocene Exile/Galactic Milieu novels. Bloody brilliant on a DuQuesne sort of level, and although he never achieved his original goal, he eventually achieved something so much more awesome it kinda blows Mental Man away.

[llennhoff.livejournal.com]

I agree about the Remillard we saw in Exile I agree, but in the GM trilogy Remillard was a wimp, and more often acted upon than acting.

[midnightlurker.livejournal.com]

True, it's only once he's away from Fury and (heh) Unifex that he can really blossom...

Old School Villain

[kitborden.livejournal.com]

Cardinal Richelieu (as described in the 3 Musketeers) was the first that came to my mind. He may not be as big and bad as some of the others. But especially taking into account the limitations he worked under, that guy was brilliant, ruthless, and scary.

Re: Old School Villain

[kengr]

I use Richelieu as a prime example of "Lawful Evil".

How many villains will get the hero in their hands and let him go when he presents an unfortunately worded pardon that the villain had intended for a henchman?

Heck, even the hero was sweating. :-)

[ninjarat.livejournal.com]

Edmund Dantes.

[seawasp]

Eh? Edmond Dantes wasn't really a villain. He's perhaps THE archetypal example of the Vengeance-bent hero who Goes Too Far. He starts out good, escapes, does some good deeds, goes for revenge and slowly things get darker until he eventually realizes how far he's gone and shifts some of his direction to keep from REALLY becoming a villain.

Smart, though, yes. Very smart.

[ninjarat.livejournal.com]

Though he is the protagonist of the story he is not a hero. The Batman is a vengeance-bent hero.

Dantes is no Dr. No, certainly, but the scope of his plans and operations are world-spanning. Thus I suggest him.

Otherwise, Dr. No. :)

[seawasp]

But Dantes is not a villain either. I specified no-holds-barred villains. Dantes is a tragic figure from either side.

Dr. No... yes, he's pretty good at being bad.

[brashley46.livejournal.com]

... Bester had a first name? After the SF writer? Sheesh.

Why do I never notice these things?

As for my fave villains, hmmm ... Lord Protector Arminger.

[llennhoff.livejournal.com]

I'd give more credit to his wife Sandra. If he had listened to her Portland would be ruling the entire West Coast, and he'd still be alive.

[brashley46.livejournal.com]

I guess you are right, actually, She's more of a whackjob than Hong, and at the same time frighteningly sane.

[seawasp]

Yes. We find out his first name in the episode where the load of Shadow-modded teeps is captured and Bester's girlfriend breaks out. She speaks to him and uses his first name.

[sorek.livejournal.com]

Ben from "Lost"?

John Locke: "But Ben said he knew how to..."
Christian: "Since when has listening to Ben got you anything worth a damn?"

[hallerlake.livejournal.com]

I nominate the Master Control Program :) and the iconic smart villain, Professor Moriarty.

[midnightlurker.livejournal.com]

Krelian/Karellen in Xenogears. He's the true major villain of the game, he spins a centuries-long plot that manipulates everyone else... and he wins, without actually causing Our Heroes to lose. :)

[melchar.livejournal.com]

Bester and Palpatine, definitely!

From the Star Wars series, also - Yoda. He managed to manipulate a 'balance' to the force, all right and get the Jedi massacred in order to accomplish this. [To my mind Yoda is neither a Jedi or Sith - but a Force wizard balanced at neutral.]

[seawasp]

Well, I did theorize that Yoda was the bad guy, but instead he turned out to just be a cowardly wuss.

[betareader.livejournal.com]

Even Palpatine was dancing to the little frog's tune. Yoda was the One Behind It All.

[midnightlurker.livejournal.com]

According to word of Lucas (not that I trust him with his own franchise anymore), the Sith and the Dark Side are intrinsically unbalanced. Eliminating the Sith line restored balance because there were only "balanced" Jedi. YMM, very much, V.

[sinanju.livejournal.com]

Hans Gruber (Alan Rickman) in DIE HARD. He was cool, calculating and Had. A. Plan. And was smart and quick-witted enough to have fall-back plans and to improvise when necessary.

And despite all that John Maclane did to screw up his plan, he was STILL going to get away with all the money right up to the moment Maclane dropped him out a window....

[seawasp]

I'll go along with that. He was a very smart villain with just the terribly bad, bad luck to have just the wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time show up.

Sauron For Chief (Villain)!

[featherwizard.livejournal.com]

Sauron, from Lord of the Rings.
1) He crushed 2 civilizations,
2) fought off 2 kingdoms of elves until he wanted to move,
3) kept his plans so in the dark no knew for literal millenia,
4) warped his enemies' minds from literally miles away
5) ...etc

He fell because of sheer, dumb luck. The only flaw (besides not being the hero of the tale) was underestimating the holes in his homeland intel.

Re: Sauron For Chief (Villain)!

[hvideo.livejournal.com]

The ONLY flaw? Hmmmm.... How about if Gandalf simply asks the Eagles to fly Frodo and a squad of fighter-types directly to the side entrance on Mt. Doom in Chapter 1, page 1. There wouldn't be a story, of course, but there sure seemed to be a vulnerability there.

Re: Sauron For Chief (Villain)!

[seawasp]

NOOOOOO! Don't go there! That way lies one of the Great Flaming Arguments of all Tolkien Fandom!

It's clearly a plot hole in that they should have ADDRESSED that issue somewhere. You can easily argue whether it would have been a successful strategy or not, but the fact that it wasn't even mentioned leaves it as a huge gaping hole.

(And one which inspires the amusing image in which Frodo, having recovered from his ordeal to a reasonable extent, is then seen chasing Gandalf through the hallway, brandishing Sting and yelling, "... (*#$%)* *GIANT* *EAGLES* that could have FLOWN US STRAIGHT TO MORDOR and YOU JUST ()*&(&^ *FORGOT*???")