Candidates for the Villains HALL of LAME!

[seawasp]

In various discussions of anime, Kathy and I have come to the conclusion that there are certain villains who are, not to put too fine a point on it, just plain LAME.

We're not talking about the villain who Monologues Too Much, or is Overdramatic, or who may have failed to read any of the Evil Overlord list, we're talking about villains who simply fail at being interesting AS VILLAINS, and yet are held up either by a contingent of fans, or by the creators of the series, as someone that we somehow SHOULD be interested in seeing. The creators of course demonstrate this belief by shoving the villain in our faces FAR too often.

Currently we have three top contenders for this type of villain and are (mildly) interested in hearing about others.

#1) Sasuke, from Naruto/Naruto Shippuden. Here's a guy who Could Have Had It all. Despite being a total angsty dickwad because of his Shameful Past, he happens to get teamed with a girl who goes gaga over him and a guy who's got an even WORSE secret -- and who somehow manages to not only see the sunny side, but ends up being friends with him, angstness and all. So instead of turning to his friends or anything else, he sells his soul to the next closest thing to Satan, maintains his "I'm such an angsty dark antihero" attitude, and doesn't develop much more in the way of a personality for the next umpty-ump volumes of the manga. When it turns out that what he THOUGHT was true about his family... wasn't, instead of saying "Ooops, maybe I need to rethink things", he decides to continue along and do what Mr. Evil wanted anyway. Still without developing any personality other than "Dark haired, brooding, angsty". God we're getting tired of seeing Sas-sucky. All he needs to do is get hit with a cluebat, but no one seems willing to give him one. He even has the example of Sociopath Gone Responsible Gaara to show him where he's going wrong, but refuses to see.

#2) Anakin Skywalker, AKA Darth Lamer. It's amazing how much he has in common with Sasuke. Both of them end up serving the Big Really Smart and Really Cool Evil Guy, both of them spend most of their time looking angsty (and get darker makeup when they Join Evil's Clubhouse), both of them have almost no justification for their actual Turning Dark, and both of them are lame, lame, LAME. Syndrome would mock them both, and Mr. Incredible would be right there with him.

#3) Envy, Fullmetal Alchemist. No matter how you slice him, he comes up lame. Superpowers, nasty, but a sort of sniggery little schoolboy nasty. He's got no majesty, he's got no style, he's got nothing except nastiness. He whines like a schoolgirl when things don't go his way, he's a coward, and he can't even manage a little COOL.

Any other candidates for the Hall of LAME?

Comments

[ross-teneyck.livejournal.com]

I remember at one point noticing that the villains of a lot of JRPGs have some variation of this motivation:

"Once upon a time my feelings got hurt; now I will DESTROY ALL OF CREATION so that NOBODY will ever experience pain EVER AGAIN!"

Naturally, I am now blanking on specific examples. But still: lame.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

Lex Luthor. Never mind the lame reason for his vendetta against Supes (gee, you're bald? Buy a wig, loser!) let's just revel in the fact that this supposed super genius never really twigged that coming directly at Superman was doomed to failure, as Supes was a God incarnate. I think I've seen three stories where Lex acts intelligently and actually plots a way to get Superman out of the way.

[keithmm.livejournal.com]

That's old Superman. The reboot Superman, all of the more recent ones, have pretty consistently had Lex Luthor (older business magnate, or newer old-school mad scientist, or combination thereof) demonstrate that his major malfunction is envy: he can't stand that there's someone out there more powerful and/or admired than he is. It doesn't mean he actually wants to rule the world, only to be confident that he could if he wanted to. It's those people who demonstrate that they can stop him if they want to who drive him up the wall. For instance, one recurring bit for a few years was that Luthor hates Superman but doesn't care much about Clark Kent, while he doesn't care that much about Batman but despises Bruce Wayne.

The latter is because Batman doesn't normally become that involved in his schemes, but Bruce Wayne has, several times, stopped some of Luthor's schemes by using the Wayne fortune and business interests.

[denelian.livejournal.com]

i don't know if this counts or not, because they were *supposed* to be a joke - but the "Evil Trio" from Buffy season 6.
why were they evil? well, one was evil bcuz Buffy found out that he made a robot, that was supposed to be like his ex-girlfriend, in Season 5. one was mad that Buffy found out and broke a spell that made him "the coolest" in season 4 (i think). i don't remember why the 3rd was there. and they actually had the "evil overlord" list...

[ross-teneyck.livejournal.com]

And yet... the Evil Trio managed to cause Buffy more outright difficulty and frustration than almost anyone else she ever faced. Even Angelus, who was not only evil but a downright sadistic S.O.B., didn't get her as tied in knots as Warren and his friends managed to do.

The thing is, Angelus was an inspired genius of mental cruelty, but the Evil Trio were smart -- in a very particular, narrowly-focused way. Also, they were able to combine technology and magic in creative ways that almost nobody else in the Buffyverse was capable of, and that let them punch far above their weight class. The fact that they were consistently underestimated, because nobody could take them seriously, only made them more dangerous.

Few things are as dangerous as a geek with time on his hands, no moral compass, and a grudge.

[seawasp]

The point isn't whether they're dangerous or not. Sasuke, Envy, and Anakin were all terribly dangerous in their worlds.

They're still Point-And-Laugh LAME.

[denelian.livejournal.com]

*laugh*
this, exactly!

[seawasp]

Oh, they undoubtedly qualify.

[xander-opal.livejournal.com]

Megatron, for not shooting his overly trusted second-in-command in the head, repeatedly.

Still trying to decide whether StarScream was an Autobot provocateur, or just plain stupid. The good guys were seldom the reason Megatron's plans failed-- it was always StarScream's fault!

Mind, I'm referring to the cartoons. Be nice if someone made a live-action Transformers movie. Ow, I bit my tongue there...

[guy-jin.livejournal.com]

Actually, Starscream was third in command; Shockwave was Megatron's #1, but he was back on cybertron, so Megatron was stuck with a crazed mutineer as his "meanwhile" number one.

The only reason I can think of that Megatron tolerated this situation was because the other jetfighter decepticons were loyal to Starscream, but that doesn't always seem to be the case.

[midnightlurker.livejournal.com]

Also, Starscream was impossible to kill (according to retcon Beast Wars canon), and probably more dangerous as a discarnate possessing entity than when he was safely cooped up in his own body...

[salkryn.livejournal.com]

As far as Envy is concerned, the one-dimensional personality of his character is kind of the point. In the manga at least, the Homunculi's names are quite literal descriptors of what they are. You would expect the physical manifestation of Envy to be a vicious, whiny little sumbitch, and Envy delivers it in a way that makes you want to watch him die SLOWLY. In the anime, however, he is just a whiny little bitch. Also, it's good to hear such a wonderful summary of why Emosuke is such a pathetic little wanker. I was tired of that asshole before he went evil.

[midnightlurker.livejournal.com]

Well, the new anime is giving Envy better (um, more APPROPRIATE) treatment.

[seawasp]

The problem is that the OTHER Homonculi seem able to choose some course of interpretation. Greed decides he LIKES humanity and ends up choosing to work with someone who'll give him BOTH the opportunity to be a hero AND get all the good stuff too. Wrath looks like he's somewhat conflicted on the real direction he wants to go. Envy COULD have chosen to take the "overcompensation" path of Envy instead of the destructive path. Instead, he's a whiner.

Yes, I detest Emosuke. Gaara shows the path that people like that SHOULD take. Start out a total dick and sociopath because you're rejected and have Evil sealed in you, THEN change when someone shows you it doesn't have to be like that.

[qinshihuangdi.livejournal.com]

Strictly speaking, Emosuke is a parody of Sasuke Uchiha found in Billy versus SNAKEMAN. Whatever Sasuke's merits or lack thereof, Emosuke is at least above average utility wise in that game.

[salkryn.livejournal.com]

Well, Emosuke level 3 is good, but emo 1 and 2 are pretty damn useless, especially after season one.

[qinshihuangdi.livejournal.com]

Even considering 1 and 2, given that there are eighty plus in the game, and that it is easy enough to get to three, I'd put Emo in the top forty plus.

[seawasp]

That looks like a very funny game.

[qinshihuangdi.livejournal.com]

I've enjoyed it for over a year, and it helps if you like Naruto. Assuming the Salkryn here uses the Salkryn account on there, he can probably give you as much pointers as I can.

[salkryn.livejournal.com]

*Switches to his Billy Avatar Icon* No, that's the other Salkryn. We don't like to talk about him.

[salkryn.livejournal.com]

It's hilarious. I recommend it for anyone who's into anime and manga, and not just because I get prizes when I refer new players.

[seawasp]

You have caused me to waste time with that foolish game. I have only a little stamina left now! I must wait until tomorrow. I have Emosuke as a team member! I will learn all his Jutsu and then dump him. (Well, maybe not. Hot pics of him sell for good bucks)

[salkryn.livejournal.com]

Good, phase one of my Diabolical Master Plan (TM) is complete! Next step, world domination!

[qinshihuangdi.livejournal.com]

If you've reached Chunin, and haven't found a village you like yet, UNIT Village has some slots left. Salkryn's village looks like it has a waiting list.

[guy-jin.livejournal.com]

My nomination is for Sephiroth. No good reason is ever established for his evilness; he's just a sociopath.

[seawasp]

We have a winnah. Sephiroth is definitely one of the top members of the Hall of Lame.

[cordova829.livejournal.com]

The Anointed One from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Consider this for a moment. He was supposed to lead the Slayer to her death. Check. Then what? Well, apparently Mini Evil Lame-o never heard of CPR nor did he think the Master really was kind of lame. He had the creepy factor working for him, true, but the Anointed One really never showed any sort of true villainy that would be associated with evil. I mean, it's not like Buffy was the first (or as proven later, last) Slayer. Oh boy, you killed a Slayer. Brav-o! Now you just need to wait for the next hero to come along and slay you. Good planning, junior.

Of course, I think Whedon was still feeling his roots out and more than made up for it with Spike. Then when Spike went ga-ga, he came up with the Mayor, who was the epitome of cool villains.

[seawasp]

Definitely the Annoying One.

Spike became the Biggest Loser in History, but he wasn't as LAME.

[denelian.livejournal.com]

oh, the Mayor is, in my opinion, the BEST Bad Guy *EVAR*!!!

i mean, he played CREEPY by being POLITE! when he said "gosh" i *shivered*

the Mayor, oh my gods the Mayor...

[seawasp]

I remember him best for his "Gosh!" as his Last Word. Funniest last line EVAR!

[denelian.livejournal.com]

also true!!!

oh, they don't make bad guys like that anymore...

[qinshihuangdi.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't know about that. I've seen some pretty good villains out of recent works.

Being polite to our host and thus neglecting other sources, his U, T, and I (for lack of a better name) characters in certain recent efforts remind me favorably of The Mayor. And then there is Virigar, although I don't know if he counts, having entered public view some time back.

Swearing, graphic language, rudeness and such are unneccessary for the depiction of horrible things. Sometimes they are useful for versimilitude, but there are a lot of people who do excellent work without them.

[denelian.livejournal.com]

true - but i find it creepier to watch a man who is planing on becoming a "HEAP BIG DEMON LORD" still believes that he is "good" enough, or something, to say things like "gosh" or :"darn"

just pure evil - acting like the height of morality. creepy

[seawasp]

Virigar has not really entered public view. The public view of him is just a big boss hairy monster. The VILLAIN Virigar is utterly unknown to the public.

U is Ugu, I I presume is "It" (the unnamed villain in Fall of Saints), but I'm drawing a blank on T...

[qinshihuangdi.livejournal.com]

I mean you released Digital Knight how many years ago? That public. The T individual is the one that had recently died at the time I posted, who could pass for decent in good light.

[denelian.livejournal.com]

did the boy ever actully do anything at all? i remember at one point Spike bowing at him... and then Spike locking him in a cage to be killed by the sun. did he ever DO anything? even his "lead Slayer to her death" was more "hey, kid, take me to him"...

[sorek.livejournal.com]

"Syndrome would mock (Vader)"

Right up to the point where Vader would find his lack of tact...disturbing and force-chock Syndrome so he couldn't breath, let alone talk.

Besides I think Syndrome would like Vader, big black cape, scary tech voice and chest piece.

I also think we need to separate first three movie Vader from second three movie Vader. "Eps 4-6 trilogy" Vader, hall of fame. "Eps 1-3 trilogy Ani/Vader" hall of lame.

[seawasp]

Exactly my point. Syndrome would mock DARTH LAMER, Annie Skywalker, the Emo-Sith.

Darth VADER is cool.

[seawasp]

ObFanwank: Force-choke VS ZPE gloves: interesting contest and I'm not sure Vader comes out ahead.

[qinshihuangdi.livejournal.com]

1) In fairness, it is possible that 'Mr. Evil'* has an ability to do deep mental work on a susceptible subject without being very noticable. Sasuke ending up a broken tool would also fit the whole 'human cost of the ninja system' theme of the series. It is clear that he is not a rational actor, and a lot of the stuff involving him seems pretty useless. Maybe he is just a MacGuffin at the moment. I'm holding off judgement until the manga finishes, or at least the current plot arc ends. Maybe I am excessively charitable.

2) I quit Star Wars after buying the SW III novel and soundtrack, after reading the novel, before watching the movie or listening to the soundtrack for entirely different reasons, but I see where you are coming from.

3) Do not have enough data to judge.

My suggestion would be Light/Kira from DeathNote. I hate him, and think the author cheats in his favor. To expand on this, I think that someone who genuinely was able to pull off the schemes he did (justified in story by his supposed genius), would be able to see the flaws in his methodology that I could. Or at least some of them, others were more dependent on my knowledge of how other parts of the world are very different from Japan and Tokyo, and of the cussedness of Americans. Then they string out the whole series around tracking him down, which shouldn't have taken as long because he was a crazy idiot.

*I'm grabbing this for a fic.

[coldservings.livejournal.com]

From Superman comics: Toyman.

Batman generally has a lot cooler Rogues Gallery than most superheroes (being more "psychological" than super if you know what I mean) but Calendar Man? Lamelamelamelamelame.

Harry Osborne from Spider Man II. What a whiner.

Simon Gruber (Die Hard 3 "With a Vengence.")

Boba Fett: Supposed to be this master bounty hunter and the one bounty he gets he doesn't even capture--it's handed to him. And then he gets accidentally (not even on purpose) knocked into the critter in the desert. Lame.

Velociraptors: Built up as these unholy engines of death and they're taken down (at least temporarily) by two kids in a kitchen.

That should do for now.