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seawasp Hey, it's been a while, I have ranting to catch up on!
There's a terribly stupid, or terribly evil (depending on the purpose of someone sharing it) meme going around that says:
There's a terribly stupid, or terribly evil (depending on the purpose of someone sharing it) meme going around that says:
"They entered the country without due process! Why do they deserve due process for us to send them back?"
This meme shows a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding of human capacity, human nature, and legal requirements. As a general meme, it's also simplistic and misleading, since a lot of the blowback right now is coming from the fact that they're (A) NOT SENDING THEM BACK, but sending them to places that effectively are disappearing them (hint: Venezuela is NOT El Salvador), and (B) "sending back" people who DID ENTER via proper routes, as well as those who didn't.
"Okay, okay, but most of them didn't, right? Why give them due process?"
Because none of them have a glowing symbol floating over their heads saying "I ENTERED THE COUNTRY INCORRECTLY".
Because, humans being who they are -- and prejudices being what they are -- many people are grabbed up on the ASSUMPTION that they fit the target of "illegal aliens to be deported". The assumption is being "verified" by things like "Do they have a tattoo I don't recognize as benign?" -- which for people my age, might be pretty much ANY tattoo, since in my youth almost NO ONE had them.
DUE PROCESS is the LEAST you owe to EVERYBODY. That "due process" consists of:
1) Only picking up people for which you have a CLEAR reason to believe fit the target profile ("they're Hispanic, target is also Hispanic" is NOT a clear reason, for instance).
2) Performing the pickup with as much respect and peaceful, minimal use of force as possible. After all, you could be wrong, and even if not, deportation doesn't mean the person deserves bad treatment.
3) After accosting a potential target, making a reasonable effort to verify the person's identity.
4) If you cannot verify the identity, you MUST either release the person, or at least get authorization to hold them from a judge (your authorization to apprehend should ALSO come from a proper authority)
5) Even if you have verified the identity to your satisfaction, the person MUST be given opportunity to contact appropriate legal aid to allow them to prove either (A) they're not the person you think they are ("I am Juan Garcia, yes, but not THAT Juan Garcia!"), (B) they should not be being seized for deportation or whatever crime you have accused them of, or (C) perhaps they are guilty, but sending them back where you intend to would present an unreasonable danger to the person.
6) This implies that they should also have TIME -- for themselves and their defenders to find the appropriate documentation and evidence for their case.
7) Once they have had sufficient time to prepare, the evidence on both sides must be reviewed in an appropriate legal fashion overseen by a neutral party. This may be a hearing or a full-blown trial, depending on exactly what you were picking the person up for.
"But we KNOW they're --"
No. NO YOU DON'T. You may THINK they are. You may be 99.9% SURE they are. But legally you need to PROVE your case, when you are invading a person's life, depriving them of their freedom, and possibly sending them into a more dangerous situation afterwards.
YOU ALSO don't have a glowing sign over your head saying "I'M A LEGAL RESIDENT!". If they pick you up, they have NO REASON TO TREAT YOU ANY DIFFERENTLY.
And if you accept that they can just snatch someone up and ship them off to a random holding camp? They WILL. And one day, if it isn't you, it'll be your friend, your wife, your kid.
So yes, EVERYONE gets due process... because if everyone doesn't, pretty soon, nobody does.
This meme shows a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding of human capacity, human nature, and legal requirements. As a general meme, it's also simplistic and misleading, since a lot of the blowback right now is coming from the fact that they're (A) NOT SENDING THEM BACK, but sending them to places that effectively are disappearing them (hint: Venezuela is NOT El Salvador), and (B) "sending back" people who DID ENTER via proper routes, as well as those who didn't.
"Okay, okay, but most of them didn't, right? Why give them due process?"
Because none of them have a glowing symbol floating over their heads saying "I ENTERED THE COUNTRY INCORRECTLY".
Because, humans being who they are -- and prejudices being what they are -- many people are grabbed up on the ASSUMPTION that they fit the target of "illegal aliens to be deported". The assumption is being "verified" by things like "Do they have a tattoo I don't recognize as benign?" -- which for people my age, might be pretty much ANY tattoo, since in my youth almost NO ONE had them.
DUE PROCESS is the LEAST you owe to EVERYBODY. That "due process" consists of:
1) Only picking up people for which you have a CLEAR reason to believe fit the target profile ("they're Hispanic, target is also Hispanic" is NOT a clear reason, for instance).
2) Performing the pickup with as much respect and peaceful, minimal use of force as possible. After all, you could be wrong, and even if not, deportation doesn't mean the person deserves bad treatment.
3) After accosting a potential target, making a reasonable effort to verify the person's identity.
4) If you cannot verify the identity, you MUST either release the person, or at least get authorization to hold them from a judge (your authorization to apprehend should ALSO come from a proper authority)
5) Even if you have verified the identity to your satisfaction, the person MUST be given opportunity to contact appropriate legal aid to allow them to prove either (A) they're not the person you think they are ("I am Juan Garcia, yes, but not THAT Juan Garcia!"), (B) they should not be being seized for deportation or whatever crime you have accused them of, or (C) perhaps they are guilty, but sending them back where you intend to would present an unreasonable danger to the person.
6) This implies that they should also have TIME -- for themselves and their defenders to find the appropriate documentation and evidence for their case.
7) Once they have had sufficient time to prepare, the evidence on both sides must be reviewed in an appropriate legal fashion overseen by a neutral party. This may be a hearing or a full-blown trial, depending on exactly what you were picking the person up for.
"But we KNOW they're --"
No. NO YOU DON'T. You may THINK they are. You may be 99.9% SURE they are. But legally you need to PROVE your case, when you are invading a person's life, depriving them of their freedom, and possibly sending them into a more dangerous situation afterwards.
YOU ALSO don't have a glowing sign over your head saying "I'M A LEGAL RESIDENT!". If they pick you up, they have NO REASON TO TREAT YOU ANY DIFFERENTLY.
And if you accept that they can just snatch someone up and ship them off to a random holding camp? They WILL. And one day, if it isn't you, it'll be your friend, your wife, your kid.
So yes, EVERYONE gets due process... because if everyone doesn't, pretty soon, nobody does.
no subject
Date: 2025-04-12 10:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2025-04-12 11:25 pm (UTC)