Why must politics intrude again?!
May. 13th, 2004 09:07 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
seawaspMe, I'd just like to get my work done (on both sides -- writing proposals, etc., and then writing Boundary). However, I keep hearing about things that are so very... wrong... that I can't help but think about them.
Yes, you've probably heard more than I have. But still... There's a hell of a lot of things one could say about the revelations of torture in Iraq (which doesn't excuse the beheading of an American civilian, but that's beside the point). I suppose if I say the things that are on my mind, then I can get back to doing stuff.
1) Rumsfeld, or whoever made the basic decision, is either an idiot, evil, or both. Colin Powell knew what would happen, and tried to warn people. Anyone who knew anything about the way these kind of things work knew it would happen.
2) Apparently they aren't teaching things the same way they did the short time I was in Basic; while it was clear you were expected to obey orders, they did point out that you are not obligated to obey orders which are illegal.
3) Civilians DO NOT GIVE ORDERS TO MILITARY PERSONNEL.
4) Let me repeat that: CIVILIANS DO NOT GIVE ORDERS TO MILITARY PERSONNEL.
5) Whoever in the military let this kind of thing go by needs to be hung out to dry. There's no excuse for it.
6) I'm not sure what to do about the guards themselves. If one looks at the psych studies, it takes some pretty unusual people to avoid falling into certain patterns in those kinds of conditions. At the same time, you simply cannot ignore it or just say "well, heck, shit happens."
7) To be fair, I think the punishment should be run right up the chain of command (and the usurped chain of command, presumably to Rumsfeld or whoever really pulled the trigger on these decisions) and then applied evenly across the board. Yes, the person at the top didn't do anything personally to the prisoners, but they set into motion ALL the events. OTOH, yes, the guards did things personally, but (if they have any decency in them at all) the memory of what they did will add to their punishment. So it evens out, I think. Firing for cause/dishonorable discharge across the board. Or fines. Or jail time. But apply it evenly to everyone. Make it clear that we don't tolerate this behavior, we do not condone it, and that no matter what level you're at in our society, if you do things like this, YOU WILL PAY FOR IT.
8) Bush is a bright man. He's also an idiot. Unfortunately the areas in which he's an idiot are just the areas in which he needs to be bright. I may have to vote Democrat rather than Libertarian just on the faint thought that my vote and that of others vaguely associated with me could be the final straw to dump him. And I don't WANT to vote for either of the main parties.
9) Serious reparations to the prisoners. Yes, even if they're nasty rotten stinking terrorists in fact. We f***ed up. We gazed into the Abyss and the Abyss gazed back into us. Take two steps back, let 'em go, pay 'em money, pay for any other treatment they need. If they attack us, well, okay, they'll get arrested or shot, but as a nation we have been dishonored. We must take the proper path to regaining what shreds of self-respect we can. WE MUST BE BETTER THAN THAT. We do not torture prisoners. We do not behead people on national TV. We do not abuse people because it amuses us. And if someone acting for us DOES these things, we must pay for it.
There. I think I'm done with this rant for now.
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Yes, you've probably heard more than I have. But still... There's a hell of a lot of things one could say about the revelations of torture in Iraq (which doesn't excuse the beheading of an American civilian, but that's beside the point). I suppose if I say the things that are on my mind, then I can get back to doing stuff.
1) Rumsfeld, or whoever made the basic decision, is either an idiot, evil, or both. Colin Powell knew what would happen, and tried to warn people. Anyone who knew anything about the way these kind of things work knew it would happen.
2) Apparently they aren't teaching things the same way they did the short time I was in Basic; while it was clear you were expected to obey orders, they did point out that you are not obligated to obey orders which are illegal.
3) Civilians DO NOT GIVE ORDERS TO MILITARY PERSONNEL.
4) Let me repeat that: CIVILIANS DO NOT GIVE ORDERS TO MILITARY PERSONNEL.
5) Whoever in the military let this kind of thing go by needs to be hung out to dry. There's no excuse for it.
6) I'm not sure what to do about the guards themselves. If one looks at the psych studies, it takes some pretty unusual people to avoid falling into certain patterns in those kinds of conditions. At the same time, you simply cannot ignore it or just say "well, heck, shit happens."
7) To be fair, I think the punishment should be run right up the chain of command (and the usurped chain of command, presumably to Rumsfeld or whoever really pulled the trigger on these decisions) and then applied evenly across the board. Yes, the person at the top didn't do anything personally to the prisoners, but they set into motion ALL the events. OTOH, yes, the guards did things personally, but (if they have any decency in them at all) the memory of what they did will add to their punishment. So it evens out, I think. Firing for cause/dishonorable discharge across the board. Or fines. Or jail time. But apply it evenly to everyone. Make it clear that we don't tolerate this behavior, we do not condone it, and that no matter what level you're at in our society, if you do things like this, YOU WILL PAY FOR IT.
8) Bush is a bright man. He's also an idiot. Unfortunately the areas in which he's an idiot are just the areas in which he needs to be bright. I may have to vote Democrat rather than Libertarian just on the faint thought that my vote and that of others vaguely associated with me could be the final straw to dump him. And I don't WANT to vote for either of the main parties.
9) Serious reparations to the prisoners. Yes, even if they're nasty rotten stinking terrorists in fact. We f***ed up. We gazed into the Abyss and the Abyss gazed back into us. Take two steps back, let 'em go, pay 'em money, pay for any other treatment they need. If they attack us, well, okay, they'll get arrested or shot, but as a nation we have been dishonored. We must take the proper path to regaining what shreds of self-respect we can. WE MUST BE BETTER THAN THAT. We do not torture prisoners. We do not behead people on national TV. We do not abuse people because it amuses us. And if someone acting for us DOES these things, we must pay for it.
There. I think I'm done with this rant for now.
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
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no subject
Date: 2004-05-13 08:32 am (UTC)1) I agree that Rumsfeld/Ashcroft/Cheney/etc are idiots who in their press conferences and statements don't seem to care that they are lying and outright avoiding the subject in their responses. Colin Powell was a man I thought would make a great leader at one time, honestly I did. In my fantasy world I think Powell is actually a good guy who is surrounded by evil men who continually backstab and blindside him which makes him look like a bad guy. The cost of the war fiasco last weekend is a great example, where he told the Black American Caucus that the cost would be $150 billion while Rumsfeld was announcing that it would be double that.
2) Apparently a majority of those ordered to do those things refused and were supported by their commanders. This comes from a right-wing apologist so take it as you will.
3) & 4) There are so many BAD THINGS one can say about using contractors or mercenaries or whatever you want to call civilians paid to do the work of the military. Primarily that they are technically not subject to the Geneva Convention and that roughly half of them work for companies controlled by Haliburton which Dick Cheney still gets paid by.
5) There should be some forced retirements/firings at least. The sad part of this is that those soldiers over there are under alot of stress and paranoia (much like Vietnam) and they're so young and inexperienced that they're prone to make mistakes of this kind. It's their commanders and leaders that should be taken to task for letting this happen. Not that the soldiers responsible shouldn't be punished however.
6) & 7) See 5)
8) I agree, even though I don't get to vote. The two main candidates don't provide much in the way of confidence in their abilities. Bush and his people just make me very nervous. Their press conferences, comments and actions seem like the actions of men who don't care about what they're doing as long as they achieve their own selfish goals.
9) The world view of the U.S. was not very good before this fiasco and this coming out does nothing to help. Those countries that decided to help the U.S. with this 'Whack A Mole' operation are pulling out and cutting off ties with the whole thing. It's said that it takes strength of purpose to do something that everyone else is afraid to do but what the U.S. is trying to do cannot be done in my opinion. Iraq has a culture that won't accept what the U.S. claims they are trying to bring to them.
It's very sad to see the U.S. doing the things it's doing. They're like a big, angry bear that was poked in the eye on 9/11 and just keep lashing out regardless of who they rip apart. They had the world behind them when the towers fell, they could have torn apart Afghanistan and their allies to find Bin Laden but they chose to spend a few months playing hide & seek then change their entire focus to WMDs and Saddam. They haven't found any WMDs and their claims of links between Bin Laden and Saddam are very shakey at best. To the rest of thw world it seems as though they used the excuse of Bin Laden to get the ball rolling and then started their real purpose once they were over there.
The Vietnam war wasn't a good thing but the element that saved the U.S. was that information technology was not very good. Today there is nowhere to hide. Blogs, Digital Cameras, Email, Satellite Communication and a world news system turn over all the rocks. The U.S. doesn't seem to want to reveal anything important to its own people or the world and when something comes out they become petulant children and say things like '...the accusation was abuse which is technically not torture...so I will not address the 't' word...'
A familiar theme on my Friends Page
Date: 2004-05-13 10:31 pm (UTC)Z
P.S.: Hey, I'm voting for the Dems, this time 'round, too.
check and balances in govt gone
Date: 2004-05-14 12:05 am (UTC)are gone. With one party ownership and a passive press (partially due to media consolidation and effective ownership by executives in the same party) -- you get no one to tell you what you are doing is wrong. This means the top leaders get to live in their fantasy land.